31 
ON SLAVE TRADE (EAST COAST OF AFRICA). 
that were engaged in the slave trade, that came 
openly for the purpose of carrying away slaves ; 
out that if they came for the purposes of trade, 
he should leave them alone, because we had 
treaties with those people, and it would be our 
duty to protect them in their legitimate trade. 
414. Would there be sufficient justification on 
the ground of alleged violation of the treaty for 
ooercing the Sultan to surrender his right to 
transport slaves from the coast ? — That is a 
o^atter for the Government to consider ; when 
late Sultan was about to die I called Seyed 
^urgash to my house ; he was supposed to be a 
great fanatic, at least he pretended to be so ; and 
he did not like the English at all ; he had been 
engaged in a revolution against Seyed Majid 
before, and General Rigby had taken very strong 
Measures against him ; but when he came to me, 
^nd was questioned with regard to his politics, and 
as to what he intended doing, he promised every 
thing ; he said he knew all about the demands* of 
the English Government with respect to the slave 
trade, and would do everything we required, and 
a^ucli more than Seyed Majid would have done. 
1 inquired regarding the debts of his late brother 
to Ludda Damjee, who is one of our subjects, 
and he said he would take on himself the whole. 
After entering into a verbal arrangement, made 
^n the presence of Dr. Kirk, he went away, and 
the very next day he denied everything, saying 
that he never made any arrangement at all. I 
think when a man breaks his faith in that way 
be should be called to account for it. 
415. Has the late or present Sultan, to your 
knowledge, ever offered to sell or cede the island 
of Zanzibar?—No, never; he on one occa 
sion said, “ If you go so far as to demand the 
total abolition of slavery, and the carrying of 
slaves on my coast, you had better take the 
island away from me altogether.” But that did 
Hot mean that he would either give or sell it. 
416. Would a free settlement on the coast 
tend to prevent the slave trade, do you think ?— 
t think so. 
417. Where would you suggest it should be 
Established ? — I should think Monfia, to the 
®Euth of Zanzibar, between Kilwa and Zan- 
^^har, a very good place. 
418. What would be the cost of protecting 
®}ich a settlement?—It would not be very con 
siderable. I think it would pay itself in the 
Eoui’se of a few years ; you would have to have 
^ governor there, I should say ; and 200 or 300 
would protect the whole place ; it is a small 
island. 
, 419. Lord F. CavendishP^ Whom does it 
oelong to?—It belongs to the Sultan of Zan- 
^ffiar. I do not think he would offer much 
difficulty to our securing it. 
420. Chairman.~\ Would it be possible to pre- 
yERt the slave hunting in the interior; and, if so, 
how ?—Only by a decree from the Sultan ; that 
to say, that he should prevent his own subjects 
Tom engaging in that trade ; and it is generally 
his own subjects who go up country with mer 
chandise and set the negroes fighting against 
Each other for the purpose of obtaining slaves. 
421. We have been told that most of the slave 
Raders come from Muscat, or from places in the 
north with which we have slave treaties ; could 
^E not prevent the annual visits of these 
northern Arabs to Zanzibar?—We have treaties 
^ith them that, so long as they carry on a legi- 
iRiate trade, we are to protect them in that 
0.116. 
trade ; therefore when they go down in a proper 
way, for the purpose of carrying on a honaJide 
trade, I do not think we could or ought to pre 
vent them ; but, unfortunately, it so happens 
that they are almost all more or less engaged in 
the slave trade. They take down merchandise 
from Muscat, and return with a cargo of slaves. 
The Arab authorities on the coast of Arabia, 
with whom we have treaties, must necessarily 
take cognisance of this illicit trade, and they 
should be called upon to punish most severely 
those who engage in it. 
422. Should we be justified in charging the 
Sultan of Muscat, or the chiefs in the Persian 
Gulf, with violating their Slave Trade Treaties, 
and in insisting upon them stopping their slave 
dhows from coming to Zanzibar ?—I do not think 
we should be justified in stopping all the dhows; 
every dhow is susceptible of being a slave dhow 
in the country ; there are not particular dhows 
for the purpose. 
423. They are not particularly fitted up for 
the slave trade?—No; that idea has misled a 
good many people. On the West Coast of Africa 
there were vessels fitted out purposely for the 
slave trade, with slave decks, and everything 
else ; but on the East Coast there is no such 
thing. 
424. Sir J. Hay.'] Then how is it possible for 
a slaver to be detected ?—That is the great diffi 
culty that is encountered by our men-of-war; 
when they first go to the East Coast of Africa 
they are liable to take almost every dhow for a 
slaver. 
425. Without a certain amount of water butts 
and other fittings, I suppose ?—There are only 
two or three sizes of water butts. A small dhow 
may have a very large water tank, but that 
would not be a criterion of the dhow being a 
slaver ; they may require a great deal of water, 
and a tank, about a cubic yard, is not a very 
considerable size. 
426. There are no special fittings, then, by 
which a vessel is supposed to be condemned ?— 
Most of the vessels that I would condemn would 
be those on which slaves were found on board, 
but the difficulty is in knowing a domestic slave 
from a slave that is for sale. The latter have 
particular marks on their heads when they come 
from Kilwa ; they are marked like sheep. A 
part of the hair is taken off, and if you see 20 or 
30 of them marked in the same way, you may 
be quite sure that they are for sale. 
427. Chairman^ Can you suggest any means 
to prevent those northern Arabs from engaging 
in the slave trade, while at Zanzibar on profes 
sional or commercial pursuits ?—The only means 
would be to have a good strong police force, but 
unfortunately the Sultan's troops are not very 
well in hand ; when I was there they were 
bribed right and left to allow the dhows to go. 
428. Do you think that it would be imprac 
ticable to reconvey the slaves to their own homes 
in the interior?—It would be very difficult; 
many of the villages from which they came have 
been destroyed when they have been taken. 
Villages are destroyed, and children are kid 
napped, and the old are allowed to die on the 
spot, and if the liberated slaves were to return to 
their country, they would find nothing but deso 
lation there. 
429. Would the establishment of such a free 
depot as the Foreign Office Committee suggested 
cost more than the 3,000 Z. a year, which is now 
D 4 paid 
Mr. H. A 
Churchillf 
C.B. 
17 July 
1871.