28 
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 
Mr. U. A. 
Churchill, 
C.B, 
17 July 
1871. 
certain time, and I am under the impression that 
he saw slaves imported there. 
353. The Committee have heard that the 
slave trade recently has very much increased at 
Zanzibar and on the coast; can you give the 
reasons for that ?—The demand has increased in 
the Persian Gulf, I should say, more particu 
larly, in consequence of the cholera that has been 
raging in the Persian Gulf lately. About six 
months ago it was at Bender Abbas, and a great 
many of the inhabitants and slaves died, and no 
doubt those people want to get as many as they 
can in consequence. I think the trade greatly 
depends upon the demand. If the demand is 
considerable, the supply will be considerable. 
354. Mr. Kennaioay.\ Would you recommend 
entering into treaties with the chiefs on the 
Somali coast?—Yes, I think that would be of 
use ; some of them are anxious to enter into a 
treaty with us. A few days before I left Zan 
zibar a chief of the interior, beyond Brava, a 
man of great influence, who has command even 
over the chiefs of Brava, wished to enter into a 
treaty, and drew up a rough draft of a treaty 
with an Englishman who is there, a Mr. Heale ; 
but the English of it was so bad that one could 
never think of signing anything of the kind. I 
drew Dr. Kirk’s attention to it, and I dare say 
he has written about it. I think it would be a 
great thing to enter into treaty engagements 
with the chiefs of the interior. 
355. Are there not several Independent chiefs 
there?—The chief I refer to commands all along 
the coast between Magadoxa and Brava; he is 
the man who attacked Juba some time ago, and 
destroyed it. Then there are other chiefs higher 
up ; it would, perhaps, be rather difficult to enter 
into treaties with them. 
356. And if they kept out of it?—But I do 
not think they would keep out of it. The Chiefs 
of Brava made a treaty some years ago with 
Captain Paisley, but it was more for the protec 
tion of British seamen who might be wrecked 
on the coast than for any other object. 
357. Would those ports be the natural ports 
of export for slaves, and give facilities for it ?— 
There are no slaves exported from the ports I 
have just mentioned ; but three years ago, in 
1868, when I went up there in the Star,” they 
were importing slaves that had been exported 
from Fazee, close by ; they were importing 
them along the coast at Brava, at Merka, and 
at Magadoxa, and were undoubtedly engaged in 
the slave trade. They could not take them far 
up, on account of the south-west monsoon, which 
was just towards its close ; the slaves could only 
go as fir as those ports, where they would be 
fattened up, and educated, and made something 
of, until the slave trade season would come 
round ; then dhows would come down from the 
Arabian coast, and take them away to Rusel 
Had, Muscat, and even to Persia. 
358. Have we not a treaty with the Sultan 
of Muscat ?—Yes. 
359. If that was enforced, and the market for 
slaves were closed thereby, as it might be, would 
not that go a long way towards a settlement of 
the difficulty ?—I do not know that there is a 
slave market at Muscat, but I should almost 
think there was. A great deal could be done at 
Muscat to put a stop to the slave trade. The 
attention of the Government has not been 
drawn to that as it should have been. 
360. At what do you estimate the income that 
the Sultan of’ Zanzibar receives from the export 
duty on slaves at this moment ?—I have always 
considered it to be something between 15,000 1. 
and 20,000 /. My calculations are founded on 
this : that when I was in Zanzibar about 17,000 
slaves were imported into Zanzibar, and I believe 
altogether 23,000 slaves were exported through 
the Custom House at Kilwa. There is a tax of 
2 dollars at Kilwa for the exportation of slaves 
to Zanzibar, a tax of 2 dollars for the exportation 
of slaves from Zanzibar to the coast, and a tax 
of 4 dollars for the exportation of slaves from 
Kilwa to the coast ; putting it altogether, I made 
it somewhere between 15,000/. and 20,000 /. ; it 
may be nearer 20,000 /. 
361. In the evidence of the Honourable Mr. 
Vivian, taken before this Committee, he speaks 
of the tax derived by the Sultan of Zanzibar on 
slaves, and he says, “We” (that is to say, the 
Foreign Office) “ have calculated it at 20,000 /. 
a year ; but I make out, unless Dr. Kirk has 
included also the sale of slaves, that in 1867-8 he 
must have got 56,000 /. by the tax upon slaves; 
that is to say, 270,000 dollars ”?—Yes, 270,000 
dollars ; but this Report of Dr. Kirk’s represents 
the value of the total number of slaves imported, 
and not the tax that was levied upon them. 
362. You do not think that there is any reason 
for putting it at that amount ?—Certainly not. 
363. With regard to the disposal of slaves; 
have you given the Committee any part where 
you recommend that liberated slaves should be 
placed?—I would recommend that they should 
go to Zanzibar. 
364. Do you think that you could possibly 
keep them there in a state of perfect safety ?-^ 
Yes, I see no reason for doubting it, only the 
Sultan of Zanzibar must be willing to co-operate 
with us ; if he is at all opposed to it, it would be 
quite impossible. 
365. How would you propose that the liberated 
slaves should be employed ; on the coast, or on 
the island ?—Some might be employed on the 
coast, and others on the island. There was an 
English company a little while ago that tried to 
obtain a concession of land on the coast ; they 
wanted land between Dar Selam and the south, 
and they would have taken any number of libe 
rated slaves. Captain Frazer would take about 
500 or 600 in the Island of Zanzibar. 
366. At all events, you think there would be 
no difficulty about it ?—I think not. When 
General Rigby was there, he liberated about 
3,000 or 4,000 slaves, and took the necessary 
means of protecting them, and I never heard that 
any of them had been made slaves of. I do not 
mean to say that none have. 
367. But, on the whole, you think they can 
be protected?—On the whole, I think they can 
be very well protected. 
368. With regard to those privileges for oui' 
Indian subjects, why should we submit to thiä 
tax being levied ?—The question was raised by 
the Indian Government, and Ludda Damjee, 
the farmer of customs, was requested to statß 
how it was that he had levied this tax ; he 
replied that he had nothing to do with the ta^ 
on slaves, and that it went to the Sultan’s private 
cash box ; that he did not farm the slaves. 
369. But I mean the tax that he levies on oui' 
Indian subjects ; how do you explain that?—-i 
think we knew nothing about it ; it is only lately 
that it has been discovered. 
370. Would other persons claim the sam^ 
privilege