48 
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 
Maj. Gon. 605. Can yon tell us for wliat amount of sub- 
C. P. Rigby, sidy such a line could be established ?—I think, 
■ most likely, since the opening of the Suez Canal, 
20 July • the trade is taking a different course, and I 
’871* think that so much trade would be attracted that 
a very small subsidy would suffice. My idea 
formerly was, that a steamer should go across to 
Seychelles, and there should meet the French, 
giving thereby direct monthly communication. 
606. What do you propose now?—There is a 
Mr. Wiseman, who has entered into the Zan 
zibar trade very largely, which he carries on by 
steamers through the canal ; he is anxious to 
tender for the establishment of a regular line to 
Zanzibar ; he sends his steamers now to Zanzibar, 
but not with any regularity, as he would if there 
was a subsidy. In the note which I received 
from the customs master at Zanzibar on Monday, 
he says, I only hope your endeavours will 
j)rove successful in regard to the postal commu 
nication with Zanzibar ; if you do succeed you 
will have the hearty thanks of the Zanzibar com 
munity, native and European. At the time of 
writing, our mails for March, April, and May 
are lying at Seychelles ; nothing to bring them 
over. Admiral Cockburn in flagship Forte,” 
left yesterday for Seychelles, he has promised to 
send these with the June mail from Mahi next 
month ; yet a month to wait.” 
607. The French steamers touch at Seychelles? 
—Yes, on their way to Mauritius and Reunion. 
He complains that the Post Office will persist in 
sending his letters to Seychelles. Seeing that 
there are only chance opportunities of forwarding 
letters from Seychelles to Zanzibar, it amounts 
to denying British subjects at Zanzibar all 
postal communication. 
608. Lord F. Cavendish^] You have read the 
Report of the Slave Trade Committee of 1869, 
which sat at the Foreign Office ?—Yes. 
609. What do you think of the terms of the 
treaty which it recommends should be negotiated 
with the Sultan of Zanzibar ?—I do not think any 
treaty would have the slightest effect ; treaties 
with Arabs are mere waste paper. 
610. You think we should get rid of our present 
treaty ?—We can easily do it, by saying, “ This 
treaty has never been observed by the subjects of 
the Sultan of Zanzibar or of the Imaum of Muscat, 
and it is no use having a treaty in force that is 
never observed.” 
611. Would you at once forbid all export of 
slaves to the island of Zanzibar ?—The worst part 
of the slave trade is that from Lake Nyassa to 
the south, Kihva being the port of shipment. The 
whole of that vast and rich country is becoming 
depopulated. Banyans who have been for years 
at Zanzibar have told me that they remember, 
when they first came to the coast, the whole 
country was densely populated down to the sea 
coast, and now you have to go 18 days’ journey 
inland before you come upon a village almost. 
That is fully confirmed by Baron Van der Decken 
and Dr. Rosher, who travelled that route. Baron 
Van der Decken talks of miles and miles of ruined 
towns and villages the whole way up towards Lake 
Nyassa, where there is now no population at all. 
Every year this slave trade is extending further 
and further inland. A great number of the slaves 
are now brought from the western side of Lake 
Nyassa ; the Arabs have got dhows in the lake 
on purpose to convey their slaves across. I had 
a proof at Zanzibar of how the slave trade extends 
from nation to nation in Africa. I found, in 
registering all the slaves I emancipated, that 
amongst the recent arrivals most of them gave the 
names of their tribe as Manganga. I could not 
at that time exactly fix the position of their 
country ; however, shortly afterwards I saw a 
letter of Dr. Livingstone in the paper, saying 
that he had recently travelled through the Man 
ganga country, where the whole population was 
engaged in the cultivation and working up of 
cotton, and he said that he had never seen such 
a wonderful cotton country in his life, or such a 
fertile country. I think, a year or two afterwards, 
he went througli the same country, and found it 
entirely depopulated, all the huts being full of 
dead bodies. The children had been carried away, 
and most of the adults slain. That is one of the 
worst features of the slave trade in that country . 
When the slave traders go into a district, they 
kill all the men and women, and burn the villages, 
and carry off the children. The reason they give 
for taking the children only is, that the children 
are driven more easily, like flocks of sheep, or 
they are tied with ropes and chains ; the men 
they lose more by desertion on the way. 
612. My question was whether you would 
prohibit the present trade which we allow be 
tween the main land and Zanzibar for the pur 
poses of Zanzibar itself ?—Unless the Government 
choose to do what I think is the proper course, 
viz., to stop it with a high hand at once, and say 
we will not have this trade go on, it might for 
the sake of the Arabs in Zanzibar be permitted 
for a short time between Miram a and the Island, 
or coast opposite Zanzibar ; there is not the same 
atrocity in that traffic, because it is not carried 
on on the organised system that the other trade 
is ; probably from what is called Mirama, 4,000 
slaves are annually brought to the Island of Zan 
zibar ; that would be sufficient to keep up the 
supply in Zanzibar and Pemba; they are meu 
and children who have been kidnapped. The 
slavers do not burn towns and villages, and mur 
der the grown-up people to get those slaves. 
613. Sir J. Hay.'] Are they exported from 
Dar Seelam ?—Mirama is the coast district oppo 
site the Island of Zanzibar ; Dar Seelam is quite 
a recent creation of the late Sultan of Zanzibar, 
and it is now going to ruin again. 
614. Lord F. Cavendish.] When you speak of 
stopping the slave trade with a high hand, do 
you mean by a squadron, or by any interference 
on land ?—By a squadron ; I do not think the 
squadron need be very strong ; but it would be in 
effective without an experienced naval officer, an 
officer whose heart would be in the work. 
615. If the trade were allowed from one port 
only to the Island of Zanzibar, would not there 
be a danger of slaves being taken overland, even 
from Lake Nyassa to that port?—That could be 
checked, because there is such a marked differ 
ence in the tribes ; I would severely punish any 
man who should export natives of those southern 
tribes ; you could easily stop that. 
616. What do you think of the recommenda 
tion of the Slave Trade Committee, that freed 
slaves should be landed by our cruisers on the 
Island of Zanzibar, and left there ?—I think it 
the very best destination for them ; I have thought 
a good deal about it, and I do not think any other 
plan would be satisfactory. The climate of the 
Mauritius does not suit them at all ; they die 
there like rotten sheep in the cold weather. 
Seychelles suits them exactly ; they get there 
the food they are used to, cassava and fish, 
bnt