AGRICULTURAL RELIEF 9283 Mr. KercHAM. I am not dealing with that side of it, because the situation you have given would work identically the same in one bill as the other. What I am trying to get at is this: The argument our friends hold up thir hands in holy horror about is that the deben- ture must be frowned upon because it is a subsidy. I do want to call attention to what a subsidy is. The CrarrMAN. How many bales of cotton are exported? Mr. KiLgore. Eleven million bales of the 1926 crop. The CHAIRMAN. A subsidy of $5 a bale? Mr. KiLgore. Two cents a pound, or $10 a bale, and on 11,000,000 bales it would be $110,000,000. The CuarrmaN. $110,000,000, and you operated without expense to the Treasury and with profit to the producer. Now, then, so much is said about the cost to the consumer. We recall the statement of the representative of labor—and they are the consumers. Mr. Edgar Wallace, representing the American Federation of Labor, stated: “What benefit is it, if we can buy meat at 10 cents a pound, if we haven’t the 10 cents? The farmers are our customers. When they have no money we can not work. Hence I think it in the inter- est of all workers. I can not see any hope for improvement except the farmer can buy. We are with you.” And they were the first to come to the rescue of the farmer in bringing about farm relief. So we accepted their word for it. Mr. AsweLL. This $400,000,000 is in the Treasury. You have a bill carrying $400,000,000. What do you want with that if it is not going to cost the treasurer anything? The Crairman. It is to be loaned to the board on ample security. The Government has been loaning to others. The Government not only loaned millions of dollars to the railroads and others, but paid $2,000,000,000 out of the Federal Treasury, the cost of Government operation. In this case, it is proposed to loan the board $400,000,000 at 4 per cent interest, on ample security. Mr. AsweLL. You say the Government would not be at a penny’s expense, and yet you ask for that $400,000,000. The CrairMaN. I am using Mr. Ketcham’s own figures. Mr. AsweLL. I am quoting your figures as contained in the bill. Mr. KiLgore. Mr. Chairman, in what I have stated here, in reply to the questions relating to the operations, and particularly in con- nection with the debenture bill, I think you gentlemen fully under- stand from my statement of yesterday that I am keeping an open mind. I would not want what I have said, beyond what the actual facts would justify, to’ have the effect of changing the thought I expressed to you yesterday. I am advocating the McN ary-Haugen bill with the equalization fee. I am not taking a position on the debenture bill. I stated a bit ago, if I may go back to my story, that the cotton cooperative—and also the tobacco cooperatives—suffered a decline because of the large surplus of production of cotton in 1925 and 1926, and that they are in this decline because of the burden of the surplus which they have helped to carry beyond what they should have and which the nonmember has profited from, that has brought about this grievous situation of the cooperatives, and it is responsible for the general agricultural situation. R6160-—28~—SER E, PT 4——3