AGRICULTURAL RELIEF Q57 
a, 2 Nes. You are not planning or hoping to have milk included 
pr SEXAURR. No, sir. 
fr. Jones. It is just the indirect benefit you hope t 
having a plan that will bring up other farm Tommonitics End tom 
tend to create interest in other phases of farm life rather than so 
much in dairying? 
Mr. SexavEr. Right. I am very strongly of the opinion that no 
man milks cows from choice. 
Mr. Jones. I think you are correct in that. Then, any measure 
which would bring general farm prices up to somewhat the level 
proportionately with other products would accomplish the same 
purpose? 
Mr. SExXAvER. We are not particularly for the Haugen bill or any 
other bill, but we are for something which will accomplish that result. 
However, at the present tinie we are not convinced that there is any 
other bill which has been presented which will do that, other than this 
type of bill, which embodies within it a method of placing those losses 
back on the individual producer in such a way that nothing is taken 
from the National Treasury. 
As an organization, we are opposed to a subsidy; we are opposed 
to anything which approaches 1t, because we believe it is too easily 
used by others and not easily enough used by farmers, and we are in 
favor of something which will throw any losses occasioned by the 
marketing of excess production, let us say, back on to the producer of 
that product. 
Mr. Jones. But in that connection, of course, the direct appro- 
priation, if there were no provisions for repayment, would be a sub- 
sidy. But a measure which ties outo the tariff system and spreads 
its advantage, if any, out over a large percentage of folks, would not 
necessarily be any more of a subsidy than the tariff, would it—with 
direct reference to the so-called export premium or debenture plan? 
Mr. SEXAUER. I am not in a position to discuss the details of other 
bills, but I will say this, that my theory of a snbsidy—and 1 may be 
wrong in this—but my theory of a subsidy is that anything which 
takes out of the Government money which is..collected for another 
purpose, regardless of how collected, if collected for.another purpose, 
tends so closely to subsidy that we, as farmers, would find difficulty 
in differentiating between the methods. tr 
Mr. KINcHELOE. You are for any measure, that will take the 
money out of the pockets of the taxpayers themselves for their own 
business; now what is the difference between taking the money out 
of the pockets of the taxpayers themselves for ;the benefit of a 
business or taking his. taxes out of the Treasury after he pays 1t 
in there? i 
Mr. SExavuer. I am not exactly sure that I get the gist of your 
question, but if you refer to the taxpayer taking the amounts of 
money out of the taxpayers for the—— 
Mr. KincueLoe. What I am talking about 1s, you said you were 
opposed to any kind of a subsidy, that your organization was against 
any kind of a subsidy? 
Mr. SExaver. We are. 
Mr. KincuerLoe. And that you were opposed to any bill that 
would take any money out of the Treasury. Now. I ask you as an