26 
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 
Monday, \ ^th July 1871. 
MEMBERS PRESENT : 
Sir Robert Anstrutlier. 
Lord Frederick Cavendish. 
Mr. Crum-Ewing. 
Viscount Enfield. 
Mr. Robert Fowler. 
Mr. Gilpin. 
CHARLES GILPIN, Esq., in the Chair. 
Sir John Hay. 
Mr. Kennaway. 
Mr. Kinnaird. 
Mr. O’Conor. 
Mr. John Talbot. 
Sir Frederick Williams. 
Mr. Henry Adrian Churchill, c.b., re-called; and further Examined. 
Mr. H. A. 
Churchill, 
C.B. 
17 July 
1871. 
333. Chairman.'] I WILL ask you, in continu 
ation of your evidence on the last occasion, what 
was the condition of the slave trade on the East 
Coast of Africa, in the districts we have been 
considering in former times, that is to say, pre 
viously to your being there ?—In former days, 
the condition of the slave trade was very flourish 
ing, so much so that the East India Company 
considered it necessary to try to put it down, and 
their agents in the Persian Gulf and at Muscat 
entered into treaties with the various chiefs of 
the Persian Gulf and Muscat, for that purpose. 
But the difficulties attending the suppression of 
the slave trade, with regard to the Indian Navy, 
were so great that the officers belonging to that 
service never made any captures. In the courts 
of justice at Bombay, a captain, after having 
made a capture, was deprived of his command, 
in order that the evidence of the officers might 
not be influenced by him ; so that very few 
captains took the trouble to capture slaves ; in 
fact, I have heard them say, that they put the 
helm the other way, and went away clear of the 
dhow whenever they came across one ; but 
matters changed afterwards, when the Royal 
Navy came to replace the Indian Navy. 
334. About what date was that? — I do not 
exactly recollect, but I think it was when the 
East India Company was abolished. 
335. What was the result of the appointment 
of the Royal Navy?—The Royal Navy was, on 
the other hand, too eager, and too great facilities 
were given to the Royal Navy in not being obliged 
to go to Bombay to condemn their dhows. They 
had the option of going there or to the Cape of 
Good Hope or Mauritius ; the last two places being 
very far from their cruising ground, the Arabs 
could thus have no possible means of defending 
themselves. The facilities offered for taking 
dhows, and condemning them, were so great, that 
the effect was quite the opposite to what was 
desired, and they took a great many dhows which 
were not engaged in the slave trade. 
336. Then the Foreign Office, as well as 
Colonel Playfair, who was then at Zanzibar, 
suggested certain measures to prevent this?— 
Yes ; at the Foreign Office rules were made, and 
measures were taken to prevent this. One of 
those measures was the establishment of the 
Vice Admiralty Court at Zanzibar itself, which 
has had a great effect in preventing irregularb 
ties. At the present moment cruisers are oíaliged 
to go to Zanzibar to get the dhows captured io 
that neighbourhood condemned, and there the 
Arabs themselves have greater facilities in de 
fending themselves. 
337. When you first went to Zanzibar, what 
arrangement did you propose for the stoppage of 
the slave trade?—There was a question of the 
subsidy that was paid to Muscat by the Treasury 
of Zanzibar under discussion ; it had beeU 
awarded by the Governor General of India. Itse 
happened that the Sultan of Zanzibar refused to 
pay this subsidy on account of a murder that 
had taken place ; the murder of his brother by 
Salim, who had succeeded him at Muscat. I waS 
told before I went to Zanzibar, that it would be 
a great thing if I could get this award put aside, 
and that by this means the Sultan would do 
anything for us with respect to the slave trade- 
When I went there, I sounded him on the sub 
ject, and I said, “ Now, supposing the Govern 
ment were to let you off the payment of this 
money, what would you do with respect to the 
slave trade?” —After a great deal of discussion, 
he said he would limit the carrying trade coast 
wise (I do not mean the trade with Arabia, be 
cause that was prohibited by treaty) ; he would 
limit it to a strip of land on the coast, between 
Dar Selam and Mombasa ; that would diminish 
the distance by about six degrees ; at present d 
is about nine degrees from one end of the limit 
to the other, so that about three degrees would 
remain. 
338. That would lessen the distance by two- 
thirds?—Yes ; and beyond those limits no carrying 
trade would be allowed ; but it so happened that 
that was a plan that was very much opposed by 
the Indian Government, and although it ha^ 
since been proposed by the Committee that sat 
last year, it has never been carried out. 
339. Would that arrangement be now praC 
ticable, do you think? — Circumstances havß 
changed since then. This murderer was suc 
ceeded by a man who, it is true, belonged to thß 
reigning family, but who had no right to the 
throne of Muscat; he, in his turn, has been suc 
ceeded within the last six months by Seyed 
Turkee, who is one of Seyed Saeed’s sonS) 
and a brother to Seyed Burgash, Sultan 0* 
Zanzibar