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MINUTES  or  EVIDENCE  TAKEN  BEEOlîE  SELECT  COMMITTEE

Sir  B.  T'rei
O.C.S.J.,
K.r  E.
1S71.

’e,  on  tlie  sjiot,  no  doubt  he  would  have  made  very
short  work  oí  his  faithless  correspondent  ;  that
kind  of  information  accurately  giveiu  and  given
with  rajiidity  to  the  head  quarters  of  a  squadron,
  would,  I  should  think,  enable  the  naval
officers  to  diminish  the  number  of  ships  emjdoyed.

492.  Do  you  think  that  the  Persian  Government ­
  would  accede  to  a  seizure  by  our  ships  on
our  own  investigation,  by  their  authority,  of  a
laden  slaver  in  their  own  ports  ?—They  arc  just
now  rather  sore  on  such  subjects,  but  I  have  no
doubt  they  would  do,  in  the  long  run,  what  is
reasonable.
493.  At  present  I  think  the  Indian  subsidy  to
the  Royal  ísavy  is  70,000/.  in  addition  to  the
transport  service  ?—Yes.
494.  Do  you  think  that  they  woidd  be  inclined
to  increase  that  amount  very  considerably  for  the
purpose  of  suppressing  the  slave  trade,  supposing
the  diplomatic  arrangements  could  be  made  ?—I
think  they  Avould  do  whatever  was  reasonable,
and  whatever  Her  Majesty’s  Government  said,
might  fairly  be  expected  of  India,  though,  no
doubt,  they  would  be  unwilling  to  take  any
additional  expense  upon  themselves,  unless
they  saw  it  was  part  of  a  general  imperial
policy.
495.  Is  it  your  opinion  that  the  Royal  Navy
could  best  perform  the  service,  or  a  local  force,
such  as  the  Indian  Navy  formerly  was?—That
is  a  large  question,  but  I  have  no  doubt  that  the
Royal  Navy  could  perform  the  service  very
efficiently  if  the  Admiralty  v  ere  a  little  less
strict  in  the  enforcement  of  some  of  the  rules
which  they  have  laid  down  for  themselves.  I
think,  if  they  allowed  us  to  deal  with  their  officers,
and  ships,  more  in  the  way  in  which  the  Horse
Guards  allow  us  to  deal  with  their  battalions  and
brigades,  the  Royal  Navy  could  perform  the
duty  just  as  efficiently  as  any  other.
496.  You  would  place  them  under  the  direction ­
  of  the  Governor  of  Bombay,  rather  than  that
of  the  Admiral  on  the  station?—They  should  be
always  under  the  direction  of  the  Admiral  on  the
station.  So  far  as  my  experience  goes,  the
Governor  of  Bombay  will  never  have  any  difficulty ­
  in  getting  done  whatever  is  necessary.
But  I  allude  rather  to  that  special  devotion  to
that  particular  service.  It  is  a  peculiar  service
in  which  the  men  get  more  efficient  after  having
been  four  or  five  years  on  the  coast  ;  and  under
the  present  system  they  arc  removed  just  as  they
are  getting  to  know  their  business  thoroughly.
497.  You  do  contemplate,  then,  that  even  with
the  ships  of  the  Royal  Navy,  the  officers  of  that
particular  service  should  be  continued  there  for
a  much  longer  period  than  the  period  for  which
the  officers  of  the  Royal  Navy  continue,  for  any
given  service  ?—Yes.
498.  And  that  they  should  become  locally
qualified  for  the  service  ?—Yes,  and  that  ymuld
obviate  most  of  the  arguments  for  a  local  naval
force.
499.  Ml.  J\.enna7vct2i.~^  One  of  your  suggestions ­
  ivas  that  we  should  have  the  rio-ht  to'seize
slavers  within  the  three-mile  limit,ivas  it  not?
Yes.
500.  Is  it  the  fact  that  wo  have  not  the  right
to  seize  slavers  in  Zanzibar  and  Muscat  by  the
declaration  of  the  Imaum  of  Muscat,  dated  6th
May  1850  ?—I  do  not  recollect  that  ;  I  was  thinking ­
  more  particularly  of  the  African  coast.
501.  But  in  the  year  1850  would  not  Zanzibar

have  been  under  the  Imaum  of  Muscat  ?—Yes  ;
I  may  state  that  I  know,  as  a  matter  of  practice,
that  unless  a  vessel  has  been  without  the  three
mile  limit  she  is  rarely  captured  ;  if  she  is  chased
on  shore  then  they  follow  her  ;  but  otherwise
they  leave  alone  vessels  hugging  the  land.
502.  Then,  what  further'  stTpulations  would
you  suggest  should  bo  added  to  the  treaty  with
Persia,  we  having  the  power  to  search  vessels  if
we  have  a  Persian  officer  on  board,  and  having
prohibited  also  the  import  of  slaies?—That  is
rather  an  inconvenient  restriction,  but  I  would
get,  if  I  could,  the  same  facilities  from  them  that
we  have  from  any  other  power;  the  greatest
facilities.
503.  T  ou  would  propose  additions  to  that
treaty;  an  amended  treaty,  in  fact?  —Certainly. ­
  I  would  keep  the  subject  always  before
the  Persian  Government,  and  press  it  on  their
attention,  until  I  obtained  the  utmost  facilities  I
thought  possible.
504.  Dr.  Kirk  writes,  on  the  14th  of  April  :
''  I  had  no  reason  whatever  to  think  that,  on  the
subject  of  the  sla’vc  trade,  he  had  in  any  wav
changed,  or  was  ¡nepared  to  grant  what  was
asked  through  Mr.  Churchill  ;”  you  think  that
if  w  e  were  willing  to  relieve  him  of  this  subsidy,
Ills  objections  to  curtailing  the  slave  trade  would
be  done  away  with  ?—Yes.
505.  Would  you  propose  that  w  e  should  pav  a
subsidy  to  Muscat?—Yes;  that  we  should  relieve ­
  Zanzibar  from  all  concern  in  the  payment. ­

506.  I  hen  we  should  be  at  the  mercy  of  the
Sultan  of  Zanzibar  if  he  did  not  carry  out  the
treaty,  should  we  not  ?—Hardly.  A  man  in  his
position,  who  is  really  at  our  mercy  the  wdiole  of
the  time,  is  not  in  a  position  to  say  that  he  had
forgotten  a  treaty  in  which  that  was  a  stipulation ­
  binding  on  him.
507.  But  his  successors  might  not  consider
themselves  bound  by  that  treaty  ?—I  think  thev
would  be  as  careful  to  observe  any  arrano-ement
that  they  had  entered  into,  as  we  should%c.  I
do  not  agree  with  the  view  that  is  taken  by  manv
people,  that  there  is  always  a  disjiosition  on  their
parts  to  recede  from  their  engagements.
508.  In  addition  to  the  cx]mnse  of  the  liberated
slaves  at  Aden,  is  there  not  a  sum  paid  in  bounties ­
  to  cruisers  ?—Yes.
509.  1\  e  pay  a  considerable  sum  in  bounties,
do  we  not  ?—Yes.
510.  If  the  slave  trade  was  diminished,  of
course  wc  should  save  considerably  in  that
respect,  should  we  not  ?—Yes.
511.  Have  you  calculated  at  all  w  hat  would
be  the  whole  expense  of  carrying  out  your  plan  ?
—No.  It  w  ordd  be  a  matter  of  very  easy  calculation ­
  ;  but  it  would  be  increasing  in  one  wav
and  decreasing  in  another.  If  your  vessels  were
as  effective  as  they  ought  to  be,  I  think  you
would  then  very  speedly  reduce  the  amount
expended  on  your  squadron,  reduce  the  amount
of  the  bounty,  and  the  head  money,  and  so  on.
But  on  the  other  hand,  I  think  you  ought  to  be
prepared  for  some  increase  in  the  consular
services.
512.  laking  it  on  the  Persian  Gulf,  would
you  propose  that  this  should  be  shared  between
the  Indian  and  Imperial  Governments  ?—Yes.
513.  In  the  Persian  Gulf,  are  not  the  interests
rather  more  Indian  than  Imperial  ?—I  think
not;  and  I  think  that  the  interests  are  almost
equally  shared.  It  may  be  a  doubt  as  to  which

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