24 
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOßE SELECT COMMITTEE 
Mr. that is what makes me think that whatever treaty 
Churchill, we might make with Zanzibar, and whatever 
— money we might spend, we shall not be able to 
13 July put a stop, to the slave trade totally, because it is 
^^71. carried on beyond the limits of the Sultan of 
Zanzibar’s dominions, as well as within them ; 
that was on the Somali coast. 
312. Sir. J. Hay.'\ Were they taken by Arab 
dhows ?—Yes. 
313. Viscount Enfield.'] Are any of the slaves 
destined for Madagascar ? — To some extent 
they are. Those taken from the southern part 
of the dominions of the Sultan, namely, from 
Kilwa to the south towards Cape Delgado, and 
even from the Portuguese territory, are carried 
to Madagascar ; some are taken to the Comoro 
Island; these are more for the French who use 
them as liberated slaves ; they are taken to 
Mohilla; people come across from the French 
possessions, and the Arabs sell them to them. 
The French are allowed to buy slaves, and they 
are liberated, or nominally liberated immediately, 
and sent to the plantations for a certain number 
of years. 
314. Sir J. Hay.] For 10 years service?— 
Five years. 
315. illiairman7\ You have heard, of course, 
the terms of the suggested new treaty ?—Yes; I 
received instructions from the Foreign Office to 
propose them to Syed Majid, which I did when 
I reached Zanzibar. I embodied them in an Arabic 
letter, and sent them to him. He took some 
time to consider the matter, and at last, being 
pressed, he said, he would discuss the question 
with me, and wanted me to go over to the coast 
with him for that purpose. I was prepared to go, 
but he was so ill at the time, that he begged me 
to put it off till he could send me notice ; instead 
of that he came back himself, and 10 days after 
that he died. I pressed the same proposals on 
Syed Burgash, his successor. On the day of his 
succession, I took the precaution of calling him 
to the consulate, and having a conversation with 
him to see what his views were with regard to 
political matters and the slave trade, for I might 
have given my support to some other candi 
date, there being two or three, though he was 
the strongest claimant to the throne, and he 
promised everything ; but the very next day he 
repudiated everything, and said, that he had 
made no arangement whatever ; that he had never 
promised anything ; that it was all false, and even 
had he done so, he was not Sultan then. 
316. I suppose you have no doubt if that por 
tion of the suggested treaty were adopted, con 
fining the export of slaves absolutely to one point 
on the coast of Africa, that would, to a very great 
extent, stop the slave trade ?—It would reduce 
the slave trade considerably, because the place 
that has been selected is only about 25 miles 
from the south end of Zanzibar ; and when the 
south n’est monsoon blows, no boat could leave 
Dar Selam and go outside the island ; she 
would have to go between the island and the 
main coast, and the steam launch which we pro 
posed to have there, could prevent all com 
munication between Dar Selam and the Arabian 
coast direct; the slavers would have to pass 
between the islands, and we could put a stop 
to the traffic. Then there would be a great 
supervision, because we proposed to have a vice 
consul at Dar Selam, who would have an eye 
upon everything that was going on, and would 
be able to report and prevent any irregularities. 
317. What naval force is employed on that 
part of the coast now ?—I think seven or eight 
vessels. I am led to understand that the force 
has been increased lately. I counted seven, the 
Forte,” the ‘‘ Nymphe,” the “Columbine,” the 
“Cossack,” the “Bullfinch,” the “Teazer,” and 
the “ Wolverine.” 
318. What is the name of the flagship?—The 
Forte.” Of course they have other work to 
perform ; the flagship is mostly on the coast of 
India. 
319. I suppose it is not unnatural that the 
officers in command of those vessels have all 
sorts of complaints brought against them of their 
interfering with legal traffic as well as illegal?— 
Yes ; and unfortunately many of the complaints 
are well founded; but I do not think it proceeds 
from any wish to be unjust on their part, but 
merely because they do not know a real slaver 
from a legal trader; they cannot distinguish the 
difference ; even before my windows at Zanzibar, 
after I had shown the “Penguin” a slaver, and 
she was captured in the harbour of Zanzibar, the 
officers, on their own responsibility, overhauled 
a dhow that was just coming in, and seized her ; 
I happened to be looking out of the window, 
and saw that they had seized a wrong dhow, so 
1 got into my boat and went and told them ; but 
it was with the greatest difficulty that I could 
persuade them that that was the case, and no 
doubt had this taken place at a little distance 
from Zanzibar, the dhow would have been de 
stroyed, and we should have had a case before 
the Vice Admiralty Court, of no colours, unsea 
worthy, destruction of dhow and prize. 
320. I suppose, as the officers receive bounty- 
money, they are interested in destroying as 
many dhows as they can ?—I do not think that 
is the inducement. 
321. I do not say that that influences them, 
but still they have a bounty ?—They are very 
eager, no doubt, to get as many dhows as they 
can ; it is the eagerness of sportsmen almost ; 
the men are at the masthead to see whether they 
can spy a dhow, and they come with the 
greatest glee to the captain to say that a dhow 
is in view, and they are very much disappointed 
if they are not allowed to go after her ; in fact, I 
have been told by some of the officers command- 
ing, that it was a very difficult thing for them 
to keep within the bounds of justice, and not dis 
satisfy the ship. 
322. When slaves are captured, how are they 
maintained ?—They are maintained on board ship 
till they are landed by the captain. 
323. Does that come ont of the bounty money? 
—I do not know. I am under the impression 
that the captain pays for their maintenance, out 
of the money he receives. They are taken then 
to the nearest place where they are required, or 
sometimes where they are not required, for they 
have been taken to Aden, where they are con 
sidered a great nuisance. It was proposed to 
land them at Zanzibar ; but none have been 
landed ; yet, as the measures that were recom 
mended by the Committee have not yet been 
carried out, they had first of all to be accepted 
by the Sultan, and afterwards the Treasury had 
to be consulted ; so that in the instructions I 
received from Lord Clarendon, the question of 
the landing of slaves at Zanzibar was reserved. 
324. What is the cost of the political agency 
and staff?—I put it down at 3,100?. a year; 
there are certain contingencies that have not been 
taken