ON  SLAVE  TRADE  (EAST  COAST  OF  AFRICA).

29

privilege  if  we  enforced  it?—At  the  present
moment  the  French  houses  on  the  coast  do  not
pay  this  tax  ;  hut  they  are  very  few,  and  I  dare  say
an  English  house,  if  we  had  one  established  on  the
Coast,  would  not  pay.  But  the  natives  of  India,
'vho  are,  more  or  less,  under  the  influence  of  the
farmer  of  the  customs,  have  paid  it  ;  and  when
they  were  asked  why  they  did  not  come  forward
and  claim  their  rights,  they  said,  “  Would  you
iiave  us  ruined,”  because  Ludda  Damjee  could  do
^t  easily  if  he  chose.
371.  With  regard  to  enforcing  their  redemption, ­
  would  not  the  objection  be  that  the  Sultan
tvould  then  be  left  without  a  sufficient  revenue  ?
—Yes;  no  doubt  it  would  cripple  his  power
altogether,  and  that  would  be  the  best  means
of  bringing  him  to  terras.  If  he  found  that
be  could  not  carry  on  his  Government  without ­
  this  money,  he  would  come  to  us  and  say,
''I  must  carry  on  my  Government,  so  let  us
Come  to  terms.”
372.  What  is  the  proportion  of  children,  with
l'egard  to  girls  and  boys,  who  are  captured  ?—I
think  there  are  returns  made  by  the  commodore,
■which  are  sent  in  every  year  to  the  Admiralty  ;
but  I  should  say  that  there  are  about  as  many
boys  as  there  are  girls,  and  as  many  men  as

Women.
373.  Dr.  Kirk  has  had  very  large  experience,
bas  he  not?—Dr.  Kirk  went  out  with  Dr.
Livingstone  formerly,  and  has  travelled  a  good
deal  in  the  country,  and  knows  a  good  deal  of
the  interior  ;  his  knowledge  of  Zanzibar  is  considerable. ­

374.  Do  you  think  that,  in  your  absence,  any
One  conld  be  more  safely  left  in  charge  than  Dr.
Kirk?—Certainly  not;  he  is  the  best  man  for
the  post.  It  is  a  great  pity  that  certain  rules
Would  militate  against  his  appointment.  When
in  Bombay  I  recommended  his  appointment,  but
the  Governor  said  that  it  had  been  decided
between  the  Government  of  India  and  the  India
Office  that  medical  officers  should  not  fill  the
appointment  of  political  agents.
375.  Is  Dr.  Kirk  continuing  there?—Yes,  he
is  continuing  there  ;  but  I  am  under  the  im-Pi’ession
  that  as  soon  as  he  learns  officially  that
be  is  not  to  aspire  to  the  agency,  he  will  give  up
bis  appointment,  because  it  is  not  worth  his  while
fo  remain  in  an  out-of-the-way  place  like  that,
without  the  prospect  of  obtaining  the  best  appointment ­
  possible.
376.  And  you  think  his  leaving  the  place
Would  be  a  great  misfortune?—I  think  so.
377.  Mr.  Crum-Ewing.']  You  mentioned  that
tbe  slaves  that  are  now  taken  to  Muscat  could
be  taken  to  Zanzibar  ;  could  they  employ  such
^  number  there  ?—Dr.  Kirk  says  they  require,  at
Last  1,700  slaves  a  year;  but  according  to  my
oalculations  they  would  require  more,  say,  3,000
‘d  least,  as  some  would  have  to  be  sent  to  Samoo
iind  Pemba.  They  could  certainly  find  employaient ­
  for  the  number  we  could  send  ;  we  do  not
^9-pture  more  than  700  or  800  a  year,  so  that  for
^  considerable  number  of  years  they  would  require
slaves  there.  I  mean  liberated  slaves,  of  course.
378.  But  the  700  or  800  does  not  include,  of
Course,  the  number  that  are  sent  up  to  Muscat  ?
^Ko,  I  think  about  10,000  or  11,000  are  sent.
379.  If  those  cruisers  were  very  active  they
^ould  stop  more,  would  they  not  ?—Undoubtedly. ­

380.  But  that  would  lead  also  to  the  capture
slaves  up  the  country?  —  Yes,  it  would;  if
0.116.

proper  measures  were  not  taken  to  prevent  the
northern  Arabs  from  coming  down,  and  kidnapping ­
  slaves  ;  bnt  the  sending  the  liberated
slaves  to  Zanzibar,  would  tend  to  diminish
the  slave  trade.  I  do  not  think  you  could
suppress  it  altogether,  because  so  long  as  the
demand  exists  the  supply  will  exist.  I  do  not
think  anything  in  the  world  will  suppress  it,  until
you  prevent  Persia  and  Turkey  from  employing
domestic  slaves.  You  might  diminish  it  considerably, ­
  but  as  for  putting  it  down,  it  is  almost
impossible.
381.  You  think  it  could  not  be  stopped  for  the
present?—Ko;  for  instance,  we  may  enter  into  a
treaty  with  the  Sultan  of  Zanzibar.  Let  us  say
that  he  will  do  everything  in  his  powmr  to  prevent ­
  the  trade;  but  is  this  sufficient?  Two  years
ago  slaves  were  being  exported  to  the  north  of
his  limits  to  a  place  with  which  he  had  nothing
to  do.
382.  Sir  R.  Anstruther.']  I  want  to  ask  you
if  you  know  whether  domestic  slaves  in  Zanzibar
are  ever  exposed  for  resale  in  the  foreign  slave
market?—There  is  no  foreign  slave  market;
there  is  a  slave  market  for  the  inhabitants  themselves, ­
  and  decrees  were  issued  by  the  Sultan  on
several  occasions  forbidding  the  inhabitants  of
Zanzibar  from  selling  slaves  to  the  northern
Arabs,  and  there  was  a  heavy  penalty  against  it  ;
but  it  is  always  done.  A  northern  Arab  who
wishes  to  buy  a  slave  gets  some  one  to  buy  it  for
him  ;  he  does  not  appear  in  the  market,  but  he
gets  the  slave  all  the  same.
383.  He  gets  a  slave  from  a  person  who  has
already  been  employing  this  African  as  a  slave  ?
—From  a  negro  who  goes  and  buys  him  in  the
market.
384.  I  was  referring,  not  so  mu  eh  to  direct
purchase  by  an  individual  coming  from  the  interior, ­
  but  I  see  some  evidence  in  the  first  Blue
Book  in  which  it  is  stated  that  a  girl  was  taken
to  Kilwa  and  kept  husking  rice  for  a  year,  and
then  taken  to  Zanzibar  and  sold  in  the  slave
market  of  the  Sultan  ;  practically  she  would  then
be  resold?—Yes;  she  would  have  passed  through
several  hands.
385.  Mr.  Crum-Eioiiig.~\  Are  they  exposed  for
sale  regularly  at  Muscat  ?—I  do  not  know,  but
I  should  say  they  would  be,  because  only  25
years  ago  they  were  exposed  regularly  at  Constantinople ­
  for  sale.
386.  Do  you  know  whether  there  is  much  exportation ­
  from  Muscat  of  slaves  sold  to  go  to  the
country  there?—I  do  not  suppose  they  do  it
openly.
387.  Lord  E.  Cavendish.']  If  the  Sultan  of
Zanzibar  was  induced  by  us  to  accept  a  treaty,
do  you  think  he  would  have  the  power,  even  if
he  were  willing,  to  enforce  that  other  power  ?—
To  a  certain  extent  he  would,  I  think  ;  he  would
require  money,  and  he  would  require  the  means
to  keep  up  an  army  to  prevent  the  northern
Arabs  from  coming  down,  ostensibly  for  the  purpose ­
  of  trade,  but  in  reality  to  kidnap  slaves  ;  they
get  hold  of  the  slaves  and  carry  them  off  into  outof-the-way
  corners  where  they  are  not  seen.
An  army  or  police  force  might  prevent  that.
388.  In  fact,  we  should  have  to  subsidise  him
in  order  to  give  him  the  means  of  fulfilling  his
treaty  ?—Either  that,  or,  as  I  said  before,  enter
into  an  arrangement  with  him  with  regard  to  the
amount  we  pay  now  of  5  per  cent,  on  the  export
trade.
389.  But  if  I  rightly  understand  the  matter
D  3  we

Mr.  H.  A.
Churchill,
C.B.
17  July
1871.