30
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
SELECT COMMITTEE
Mr. H. A.
Churchillj
C.B.
17 July
1871.
we are already paying that?—Yes; butlpropose
that it should be taken away from him, and
then held out to him as an inducement to make a
treaty,
390, But has he at present sufficient powers
to enforce such a treaty unless his means were
increased ?—To the extent of the treaty that we
recommended in the Foreign Office Committee
1 should think he might.
391, He would be able to confine the export
of slaves to one port, would he not?—Yes, I
think so,
39Í1, Sir Ä A ristruther.~\ But if he cannot enforce
his own decree with regard to the resale of
slaves for the northern Arabs, for his own subjects,
what means would he have of enforcing
such a treaty ?—There are a great many reasons
for not enforcing the decrees ; many of his own
people are engaged in the slave trade, the great
folks of Zanzibar, and when they are detected he
does not like to punish them,
393. Would not that apply also to the liberated
slaves ?—We should have a supervision over
them; we should prevent them being kidnapped.
I dare say some might be kidnapped, but, on the
whole, I think w e might protect them sufficiently
well. Ihe Sultan’s own slaves are sometimes
kidnapped.
394. Then the expense of the protection to
liberated slaves would fall on us, and nob on
him —1 o a certain extent it would fall upon us,
certainly.
395. Lord F. Cavendish.'] Could you state
at all what expenditure we should be put to
in_ order to enable the Sultan to put an end to
this treaty. We have had it in evidence that
the mere expenditure of 1,500/. a year, and the
fees of a consular establishment, would put an
end to the slave trade ; is that your opinion ?—
No, certainly not. That would lead in a considerable
degree to bringing the matter to a close
ultimately ; but I do not think it would put an
end to the slave trade at all.
396. Can you give the Committee any kind of
estimate with regard to the expenditure we should
be put to in order really to grapple with this
trade?—I cannot.
397. Can you form any opinion whatever of
what the expense would be ?—No ; it would be
a matter for future negotiations, I should say.
398. If the slave trade was confined to one
port on the adjacent coast, would it not have
the effect very much of increasing the land
journey ?—Yes ; it would have the effect of increasing
the land journey by the distance existing
between Kilwa and Dar Selam; that would
be a matter of four or five days,
399. And on those four or five days the suffering
would be very considerable, would it not?—
hiot more considerable than the sufferings of the
slaves in the dhows.
400. I think you stated that, after all, this
trade, like all other trades, depended on the demand;
should we not have a better chance of
checking it if we checked the demand by making
the landing of slaves much more difficult in
Muscat, and the other places ?—Yes, certainly.
I propose that we should call on the Suitan of
Muscat, and the chiefs of the Persian Gulf, to
prevent the importation of slaves into their
dominions and to punish those who engage in the
trade.
401. Muscat is the main port of entry, is it
iiot ?—No ; not Muscat itself, but all the small
ports along the coast of Arabia on the Gulf of
Oman.
402. Are they all subject to the Imaum of
IVfuscat ?—Yes, most of them.
403. What other rulers are there beyond ?—
Beyond, in the Persian Gulf, there is the Chief
of Bahrein, and a little low er down, the Chief of
Abuthubbee.
404. Do they encourage or restrain the slave
trade ?—They encourage it just as the rest do, by
allowing their subjects to carry on the trade with
impunity.
405. Ihey have a large pecuniary interest in
It, have they not?—Yes, indirectly.
406. Have we any treaties with them ? — Yes,
with all of them.
407. But all those treaties are evaded, are
they not?—Yes; Colonel Disbrow, who went
the round of many of those ports, saw slaves
landed openly there.
408. Chah'inan.] Have not many^ British subjects
placed themselves under the Sultan of
Zanzibar, in order to be able to hold slaves with
impunity ?—A great many.
, 409. That is principally- since the Naturalisation
Act has become known there, is it not ?—It
is many years ago that British protected subjects
of India were allowed to take the protection of
the Sultan of Zanzibar ; ever since the vear
1862, I think.
410. Do you mean that they were allow^ed that
protection by the connivance of the British
Government ? — General Rigby prohibited it;
at least, it was never entertained during his time •
but when he was succeeded by Colonel Pelly, it
then began to be allowed ; and in Colonel Playfan
s time, w'^itii the sanction of the Government
of Bombay, I believe, the Sultan was told that
British protected subjects who had not entered
their names in the consular register, were to be
considered as Arab subjects. The first question
the Sultan asked was whether they rnio-fit hold
slaves, and he was told that they were considered
as Arab subjects, and mi^lit do what they liked
and they immediately began to buy slaves.
411. On whose authority was such a statement
made; was it on the authority of the Government
of India ? — I am under the impression
that it was ; it could not be otherwise, I should
say ; but when I went to Zanzibar this subject
attracted my attention, and I made representations
about it, and the answer that I obtained
from the Bombay Government was, co the effect
that it might be very proper to deprive the said
Indians of their slaves, but who was goino* to
pay the compensation to which they would be
entitled ; certainly not the Indian Government.
However, the question was very well ventilated
and the last orders of the Indian Government
were that, although they should be allowed to
keep the slaves they had, they were not to buy
or sell any more. ^
T ^ ^ questions for
Lord Enfield, who has left the room for a short
time; the first is, are you aware that the late
Sultan of Zanzibar ever violated the Slave Trade
lieaty . I have never heard of his having done
so.
413. Did he discourage, as far as he could, the
visits of the northern dhowsf—He did; on one
occasion he went so far as to say that he would
L ™ dhow that came from the north. I
thought it a very general way of putting it, and
I proposed that he should only burn those dhows
that
