8 
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE SELECT COMMITTEE 
Hon. Slave Trade Committee of 1870?—This despatch 
C, Vivian, dated the 16th of July 1870, embodying the pro- 
' posed treaty, which I have read, was written to 
10 July Mr. Churchill, in which he is requested to 
1^71* urge the views of Her Majesty’s Government on 
the Sultan. 
119. Mr. Crum-Eu'hiff'j Supposing you stopped 
the foreign slave trade, there would be no induce 
ment for the northern Arabs to come down ?— 
The foreign slave trade is prohibited entirely. 
120. But it goes on underhand ?—Yes. 
121. If it was entirely stopped there would 
be no inducement for them to come down ?—That 
is exactly the question, how we can stop it ; the 
foreign slave trade is forbidden as much as it can 
be forbidden, by treaty now. 
122. Supposing the plan which you have sug 
gested were carried out, that would stop the 
seizure of slaves altogether, and there would be 
no inducement for the Arabs to come down from 
the north and carry on the trade?—Ho, they 
would probably try and carry it on for some time 
after we stopped it. 
123. Mr. Kmyiaird.^ In recommending one 
central jiort for the shipment of slaves, you con 
sider that that could be so effectively guarded 
that you would stop the trade altogether ?—Yes; 
on the Other hand you would have to keep vessels 
on the look out at the old ports of shipment ; 
they would still try and export them from the 
places they had been used to ; particularly from 
Kilwa. 
124. Ton-would have to continue watching 
those ports?—Ho doubt. 
125. Sir JTf/y.] Has the proposal to obtain 
the cession of Zanzibar to this country ever been 
considered ?—Hot the cession of it, because they 
have never offered to cede it, but the seizure of it 
has been proposed ; I do not see that we should 
have the slightest right to take possession of it. 
126. Mr. Kinnaird.~\ Was the proposition to 
purchase the island ever entertained?—Ho, 
never to my knowledge. 
127. Chairman.^ Have you never heard that 
the Sultan would be ready to sell Zanzibar ?— 
Ho; the Sultan has said, you may as well take 
all I have if you go on in this way, but that was 
mere pettishness ; there was a proposal to take 
possession of it. 
128. Have there been difficulties standing in 
the way of your doing more than you have done 
with reference to carrying out the proposals of 
the Committee of 1870 ?—Yes. 
129. What have been the special difficulties ? 
—The Government appear to have thought that 
those proposals did not go far enough. They 
said, that whatever their views might be, if the 
absolute extinction of the East Coast of Africa 
slave trade were in question, they were not dis 
posed to spend a greater amount of public 
money than at present on measures which had 
the appearance of lending, at least, a j)artlal 
countenance to the slave trade. 
130. ^\v R. Anstruther.~\ When was that opinion 
expressed?—This year. I cannot tell you ex 
actly when ; it was after the proposals of the 
Committee had been considered as to increasing 
the number of ships, appointing vice consuls and 
sharing the expenses of the Zanzibar Agency. 
133. lAw Kinnaird.'] Which was strongly re 
commended by the Foreign Office ?—Yes. 
132. It is that determination of the Govern 
ment on the proposals of the Committee which 
has hung up the question for the present?—Yes, 
we have desired Dr. Kirk to make our proposals 
to the new Sultan, but without an increase of 
torce and without consuls on the coast, I do not 
thinly our ^n oposals will have very much effect. 
13o. Lnless we follow them up with some 
active measures we cannot give effect to them ? 
—It is of no use adopting them in part unless 
you adopt them in the whole. 
13T The Committee, in making that report, 
anticipated that the Government \reuld carry it 
out?—Yes. ^ 
135. Chairman.'] You attach very consider 
able importance to placing an additional number 
OÍ vice consuls on several parts of the coast?— 
Ao doubt; I think it would be necessary. Sir 
hoivell Buxton objected to that particularly; he 
said he did not consider it a proper duty for a 
British consular officer to look after the slave 
trade. He wrote a strong letter to the Foreion 
Office, pointing out that it was not the duty'of 
British consuls to superintend the traffic in slaves. 
136. I he Sultan, as I understand, has not yet 
leiused m declined to entertain those proposi 
tions. The late Sultan had promised to enter 
tain them, and he and Mr. Churchill were to talk 
the matter over. Then he became very ill and 
died, and the present Sultan absolutely refused 
to entertain them. When Mr. Churchill pro 
posed them to him, he said he had had quite 
enough of treaties as they were, without ooin«" 
into any further ones, and Mr. Churchill and he 
separated not very good friends. However, since 
Mr. Churchill left, he has shown a disposition 
to come to terms, and he has made, indirectly, 
overtures to Dr, Kirk, to the effect that he is 
prepared to do something, but Dr. Kirk said the 
oveituies fell so far short, even of what we, the 
Committee proposed, that he would not entertain 
them for a moment, but he is, no doubt, rather 
frightened at our attitude. 
137. Mr. Crum-Eicing.] At what ¡lart of the 
coast would you think of placing the vice consuls ? 
-—At the old place of export Kilwa and Dar 
Selam (which we propose to be the sole port of 
export from the coast, it beinoj opposite Zanzibar, 
and therefore easily controlled). 
138. Sil R. Ánstruther.] You would propose 
to have a consul also at Lamoo?—Yes, one at 
Kilwa and perhaps one at Lamoo to watch the two 
extremities of the coast, and one at Dar Selam, 
which we mean to make the only port of export. 
We recommended that ‘‘ A consular officer should 
also be appointed at Dar Selam, under the super 
intendence of Her Majesty’s consul, to whom he 
should report upon all matters connected with 
the slave trade, the number of slaves exported, 
and whether the Sultan’s engagements with Her 
Majesty’s Government are strictly observed. 
This officer would probably be required to visit, 
from time to time, the various points on the coast, 
and to report whether any irregularities exist, or 
any illegal exports are carried on. It is probable 
that for some time the slave traders will attempt 
to continue the exportation of slaves from Kilwa, 
while its distance from Zanzibar and Dar Selam 
will not enable the British authorities at those 
places to watch and check such practices ; and it 
may be necessary at first to station a consular 
officer at that port also.” 
139. Chairman.] Are the latest accounts re 
garding the prevalence of the slave trade on the 
Zanzibar coast worse or better than heretofore ? 
\\ orse ; Dr. Kirk says the trade has never been 
so vigorously carried on as it has been latterly. 
140. Sir