8
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE SELECT COMMITTEE
Hon. Slave Trade Committee of 1870?—This despatch
C, Vivian, dated the 16th of July 1870, embodying the pro-'
posed treaty, which I have read, was written to
10 July Mr. Churchill, in which he is requested to
1^71* urge the views of Her Majesty’s Government on
the Sultan.
119. Mr. Crum-Eu'hiff'j Supposing you stopped
the foreign slave trade, there would be no inducement
for the northern Arabs to come down ?—
The foreign slave trade is prohibited entirely.
120. But it goes on underhand ?—Yes.
121. If it was entirely stopped there would
be no inducement for them to come down ?—That
is exactly the question, how we can stop it ; the
foreign slave trade is forbidden as much as it can
be forbidden, by treaty now.
122. Supposing the plan which you have suggested
were carried out, that would stop the
seizure of slaves altogether, and there would be
no inducement for the Arabs to come down from
the north and carry on the trade?—Ho, they
would probably try and carry it on for some time
after we stopped it.
123. Mr. Kmyiaird.^ In recommending one
central jiort for the shipment of slaves, you consider
that that could be so effectively guarded
that you would stop the trade altogether ?—Yes;
on the Other hand you would have to keep vessels
on the look out at the old ports of shipment ;
they would still try and export them from the
places they had been used to ; particularly from
Kilwa.
124. Ton-would have to continue watching
those ports?—Ho doubt.
125. Sir JTf/y.] Has the proposal to obtain
the cession of Zanzibar to this country ever been
considered ?—Hot the cession of it, because they
have never offered to cede it, but the seizure of it
has been proposed ; I do not see that we should
have the slightest right to take possession of it.
126. Mr. Kinnaird.~\ Was the proposition to
purchase the island ever entertained?—Ho,
never to my knowledge.
127. Chairman.^ Have you never heard that
the Sultan would be ready to sell Zanzibar ?—
Ho; the Sultan has said, you may as well take
all I have if you go on in this way, but that was
mere pettishness ; there was a proposal to take
possession of it.
128. Have there been difficulties standing in
the way of your doing more than you have done
with reference to carrying out the proposals of
the Committee of 1870 ?—Yes.
129. What have been the special difficulties ?
—The Government appear to have thought that
those proposals did not go far enough. They
said, that whatever their views might be, if the
absolute extinction of the East Coast of Africa
slave trade were in question, they were not disposed
to spend a greater amount of public
money than at present on measures which had
the appearance of lending, at least, a j)artlal
countenance to the slave trade.
130. ^\v R. Anstruther.~\ When was that opinion
expressed?—This year. I cannot tell you exactly
when ; it was after the proposals of the
Committee had been considered as to increasing
the number of ships, appointing vice consuls and
sharing the expenses of the Zanzibar Agency.
133. lAw Kinnaird.'] Which was strongly recommended
by the Foreign Office ?—Yes.
132. It is that determination of the Government
on the proposals of the Committee which
has hung up the question for the present?—Yes,
we have desired Dr. Kirk to make our proposals
to the new Sultan, but without an increase of
torce and without consuls on the coast, I do not
thinly our ^n oposals will have very much effect.
13o. Lnless we follow them up with some
active measures we cannot give effect to them ?
—It is of no use adopting them in part unless
you adopt them in the whole.
13T The Committee, in making that report,
anticipated that the Government \reuld carry it
out?—Yes. ^
135. Chairman.'] You attach very considerable
importance to placing an additional number
OÍ vice consuls on several parts of the coast?—
Ao doubt; I think it would be necessary. Sir
hoivell Buxton objected to that particularly; he
said he did not consider it a proper duty for a
British consular officer to look after the slave
trade. He wrote a strong letter to the Foreion
Office, pointing out that it was not the duty'of
British consuls to superintend the traffic in slaves.
136. I he Sultan, as I understand, has not yet
leiused m declined to entertain those propositions.
The late Sultan had promised to entertain
them, and he and Mr. Churchill were to talk
the matter over. Then he became very ill and
died, and the present Sultan absolutely refused
to entertain them. When Mr. Churchill proposed
them to him, he said he had had quite
enough of treaties as they were, without ooin«"
into any further ones, and Mr. Churchill and he
separated not very good friends. However, since
Mr. Churchill left, he has shown a disposition
to come to terms, and he has made, indirectly,
overtures to Dr, Kirk, to the effect that he is
prepared to do something, but Dr. Kirk said the
oveituies fell so far short, even of what we, the
Committee proposed, that he would not entertain
them for a moment, but he is, no doubt, rather
frightened at our attitude.
137. Mr. Crum-Eicing.] At what ¡lart of the
coast would you think of placing the vice consuls ?
-—At the old place of export Kilwa and Dar
Selam (which we propose to be the sole port of
export from the coast, it beinoj opposite Zanzibar,
and therefore easily controlled).
138. Sil R. Ánstruther.] You would propose
to have a consul also at Lamoo?—Yes, one at
Kilwa and perhaps one at Lamoo to watch the two
extremities of the coast, and one at Dar Selam,
which we mean to make the only port of export.
We recommended that ‘‘ A consular officer should
also be appointed at Dar Selam, under the superintendence
of Her Majesty’s consul, to whom he
should report upon all matters connected with
the slave trade, the number of slaves exported,
and whether the Sultan’s engagements with Her
Majesty’s Government are strictly observed.
This officer would probably be required to visit,
from time to time, the various points on the coast,
and to report whether any irregularities exist, or
any illegal exports are carried on. It is probable
that for some time the slave traders will attempt
to continue the exportation of slaves from Kilwa,
while its distance from Zanzibar and Dar Selam
will not enable the British authorities at those
places to watch and check such practices ; and it
may be necessary at first to station a consular
officer at that port also.”
139. Chairman.] Are the latest accounts regarding
the prevalence of the slave trade on the
Zanzibar coast worse or better than heretofore ?
\\ orse ; Dr. Kirk says the trade has never been
so vigorously carried on as it has been latterly.
140. Sir
