ON SLAVE TRADE (EAST COAST OF AFRICA). 
29 
privilege if we enforced it?—At the present 
moment the French houses on the coast do not 
pay this tax ; hut they are very few, and I dare say 
an English house, if we had one established on the 
Coast, would not pay. But the natives of India, 
'vho are, more or less, under the influence of the 
farmer of the customs, have paid it ; and when 
they were asked why they did not come forward 
and claim their rights, they said, “ Would you 
iiave us ruined,” because Ludda Damjee could do 
^t easily if he chose. 
371. With regard to enforcing their redemp 
tion, would not the objection be that the Sultan 
tvould then be left without a sufficient revenue ? 
—Yes; no doubt it would cripple his power 
altogether, and that would be the best means 
of bringing him to terras. If he found that 
be could not carry on his Government with 
out this money, he would come to us and say, 
''I must carry on my Government, so let us 
Come to terms.” 
372. What is the proportion of children, with 
l'egard to girls and boys, who are captured ?—I 
think there are returns made by the commodore, 
■which are sent in every year to the Admiralty ; 
but I should say that there are about as many 
boys as there are girls, and as many men as 
Women. 
373. Dr. Kirk has had very large experience, 
bas he not?—Dr. Kirk went out with Dr. 
Livingstone formerly, and has travelled a good 
deal in the country, and knows a good deal of 
the interior ; his knowledge of Zanzibar is con 
siderable. 
374. Do you think that, in your absence, any 
One conld be more safely left in charge than Dr. 
Kirk?—Certainly not; he is the best man for 
the post. It is a great pity that certain rules 
Would militate against his appointment. When 
in Bombay I recommended his appointment, but 
the Governor said that it had been decided 
between the Government of India and the India 
Office that medical officers should not fill the 
appointment of political agents. 
375. Is Dr. Kirk continuing there?—Yes, he 
is continuing there ; but I am under the im- 
Pi’ession that as soon as he learns officially that 
be is not to aspire to the agency, he will give up 
bis appointment, because it is not worth his while 
fo remain in an out-of-the-way place like that, 
without the prospect of obtaining the best ap 
pointment possible. 
376. And you think his leaving the place 
Would be a great misfortune?—I think so. 
377. Mr. Crum-Ewing.'] You mentioned that 
tbe slaves that are now taken to Muscat could 
be taken to Zanzibar ; could they employ such 
^ number there ?—Dr. Kirk says they require, at 
Last 1,700 slaves a year; but according to my 
oalculations they would require more, say, 3,000 
‘d least, as some would have to be sent to Samoo 
iind Pemba. They could certainly find employ 
aient for the number we could send ; we do not 
^9-pture more than 700 or 800 a year, so that for 
^ considerable number of years they would require 
slaves there. I mean liberated slaves, of course. 
378. But the 700 or 800 does not include, of 
Course, the number that are sent up to Muscat ? 
^Ko, I think about 10,000 or 11,000 are sent. 
379. If those cruisers were very active they 
^ould stop more, would they not ?—Undoubt 
edly. 
380. But that would lead also to the capture 
slaves up the country? — Yes, it would; if 
0.116. 
proper measures were not taken to prevent the 
northern Arabs from coming down, and kid 
napping slaves ; bnt the sending the liberated 
slaves to Zanzibar, would tend to diminish 
the slave trade. I do not think you could 
suppress it altogether, because so long as the 
demand exists the supply will exist. I do not 
think anything in the world will suppress it, until 
you prevent Persia and Turkey from employing 
domestic slaves. You might diminish it con 
siderably, but as for putting it down, it is almost 
impossible. 
381. You think it could not be stopped for the 
present?—Ko; for instance, we may enter into a 
treaty with the Sultan of Zanzibar. Let us say 
that he will do everything in his powmr to pre 
vent the trade; but is this sufficient? Two years 
ago slaves were being exported to the north of 
his limits to a place with which he had nothing 
to do. 
382. Sir R. Anstruther.'] I want to ask you 
if you know whether domestic slaves in Zanzibar 
are ever exposed for resale in the foreign slave 
market?—There is no foreign slave market; 
there is a slave market for the inhabitants them 
selves, and decrees were issued by the Sultan on 
several occasions forbidding the inhabitants of 
Zanzibar from selling slaves to the northern 
Arabs, and there was a heavy penalty against it ; 
but it is always done. A northern Arab who 
wishes to buy a slave gets some one to buy it for 
him ; he does not appear in the market, but he 
gets the slave all the same. 
383. He gets a slave from a person who has 
already been employing this African as a slave ? 
—From a negro who goes and buys him in the 
market. 
384. I was referring, not so mu eh to direct 
purchase by an individual coming from the in 
terior, but I see some evidence in the first Blue 
Book in which it is stated that a girl was taken 
to Kilwa and kept husking rice for a year, and 
then taken to Zanzibar and sold in the slave 
market of the Sultan ; practically she would then 
be resold?—Yes; she would have passed through 
several hands. 
385. Mr. Crum-Eioiiig.~\ Are they exposed for 
sale regularly at Muscat ?—I do not know, but 
I should say they would be, because only 25 
years ago they were exposed regularly at Con 
stantinople for sale. 
386. Do you know whether there is much ex 
portation from Muscat of slaves sold to go to the 
country there?—I do not suppose they do it 
openly. 
387. Lord E. Cavendish.'] If the Sultan of 
Zanzibar was induced by us to accept a treaty, 
do you think he would have the power, even if 
he were willing, to enforce that other power ?— 
To a certain extent he would, I think ; he would 
require money, and he would require the means 
to keep up an army to prevent the northern 
Arabs from coming down, ostensibly for the pur 
pose of trade, but in reality to kidnap slaves ; they 
get hold of the slaves and carry them off into out- 
of-the-way corners where they are not seen. 
An army or police force might prevent that. 
388. In fact, we should have to subsidise him 
in order to give him the means of fulfilling his 
treaty ?—Either that, or, as I said before, enter 
into an arrangement with him with regard to the 
amount we pay now of 5 per cent, on the export 
trade. 
389. But if I rightly understand the matter 
D 3 we 
Mr. H. A. 
Churchill, 
C.B. 
17 July 
1871.