30 
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE 
SELECT COMMITTEE 
Mr. H. A. 
Churchillj 
C.B. 
17 July 
1871. 
we are already paying that?—Yes; butlpro- 
pose that it should be taken away from him, and 
then held out to him as an inducement to make a 
treaty, 
390, But has he at present sufficient powers 
to enforce such a treaty unless his means were 
increased ?—To the extent of the treaty that we 
recommended in the Foreign Office Committee 
1 should think he might. 
391, He would be able to confine the export 
of slaves to one port, would he not?—Yes, I 
think so, 
39Í1, Sir Ä A ristruther.~\ But if he cannot en 
force his own decree with regard to the resale of 
slaves for the northern Arabs, for his own sub 
jects, what means would he have of enforcing 
such a treaty ?—There are a great many reasons 
for not enforcing the decrees ; many of his own 
people are engaged in the slave trade, the great 
folks of Zanzibar, and when they are detected he 
does not like to punish them, 
393. Would not that apply also to the liberated 
slaves ?—We should have a supervision over 
them; we should prevent them being kidnapped. 
I dare say some might be kidnapped, but, on the 
whole, I think w e might protect them sufficiently 
well. Ihe Sultan’s own slaves are sometimes 
kidnapped. 
394. Then the expense of the protection to 
liberated slaves would fall on us, and nob on 
him —1 o a certain extent it would fall upon us, 
certainly. 
395. Lord F. Cavendish.'] Could you state 
at all what expenditure we should be put to 
in_ order to enable the Sultan to put an end to 
this treaty. We have had it in evidence that 
the mere expenditure of 1,500/. a year, and the 
fees of a consular establishment, would put an 
end to the slave trade ; is that your opinion ?— 
No, certainly not. That would lead in a con 
siderable degree to bringing the matter to a close 
ultimately ; but I do not think it would put an 
end to the slave trade at all. 
396. Can you give the Committee any kind of 
estimate with regard to the expenditure we should 
be put to in order really to grapple with this 
trade?—I cannot. 
397. Can you form any opinion whatever of 
what the expense would be ?—No ; it would be 
a matter for future negotiations, I should say. 
398. If the slave trade was confined to one 
port on the adjacent coast, would it not have 
the effect very much of increasing the land 
journey ?—Yes ; it would have the effect of in 
creasing the land journey by the distance exist 
ing between Kilwa and Dar Selam; that would 
be a matter of four or five days, 
399. And on those four or five days the suffer 
ing would be very considerable, would it not?— 
hiot more considerable than the sufferings of the 
slaves in the dhows. 
400. I think you stated that, after all, this 
trade, like all other trades, depended on the de 
mand; should we not have a better chance of 
checking it if we checked the demand by making 
the landing of slaves much more difficult in 
Muscat, and the other places ?—Yes, certainly. 
I propose that we should call on the Suitan of 
Muscat, and the chiefs of the Persian Gulf, to 
prevent the importation of slaves into their 
dominions and to punish those who engage in the 
trade. 
401. Muscat is the main port of entry, is it 
iiot ?—No ; not Muscat itself, but all the small 
ports along the coast of Arabia on the Gulf of 
Oman. 
402. Are they all subject to the Imaum of 
IVfuscat ?—Yes, most of them. 
403. What other rulers are there beyond ?— 
Beyond, in the Persian Gulf, there is the Chief 
of Bahrein, and a little low er down, the Chief of 
Abuthubbee. 
404. Do they encourage or restrain the slave 
trade ?—They encourage it just as the rest do, by 
allowing their subjects to carry on the trade with 
impunity. 
405. Ihey have a large pecuniary interest in 
It, have they not?—Yes, indirectly. 
406. Have we any treaties with them ? — Yes, 
with all of them. 
407. But all those treaties are evaded, are 
they not?—Yes; Colonel Disbrow, who went 
the round of many of those ports, saw slaves 
landed openly there. 
408. Chah'inan.] Have not many^ British sub 
jects placed themselves under the Sultan of 
Zanzibar, in order to be able to hold slaves with 
impunity ?—A great many. 
, 409. That is principally- since the Naturalisa 
tion Act has become known there, is it not ?—It 
is many years ago that British protected subjects 
of India were allowed to take the protection of 
the Sultan of Zanzibar ; ever since the vear 
1862, I think. 
410. Do you mean that they were allow^ed that 
protection by the connivance of the British 
Government ? — General Rigby prohibited it; 
at least, it was never entertained during his time • 
but when he was succeeded by Colonel Pelly, it 
then began to be allowed ; and in Colonel Play- 
fan s time, w'^itii the sanction of the Government 
of Bombay, I believe, the Sultan was told that 
British protected subjects who had not entered 
their names in the consular register, were to be 
considered as Arab subjects. The first question 
the Sultan asked was whether they rnio-fit hold 
slaves, and he was told that they were considered 
as Arab subjects, and mi^lit do what they liked 
and they immediately began to buy slaves. 
411. On whose authority was such a statement 
made; was it on the authority of the Govern 
ment of India ? — I am under the impression 
that it was ; it could not be otherwise, I should 
say ; but when I went to Zanzibar this subject 
attracted my attention, and I made representa 
tions about it, and the answer that I obtained 
from the Bombay Government was, co the effect 
that it might be very proper to deprive the said 
Indians of their slaves, but who was goino* to 
pay the compensation to which they would be 
entitled ; certainly not the Indian Government. 
However, the question was very well ventilated 
and the last orders of the Indian Government 
were that, although they should be allowed to 
keep the slaves they had, they were not to buy 
or sell any more. ^ 
T ^ ^ questions for 
Lord Enfield, who has left the room for a short 
time; the first is, are you aware that the late 
Sultan of Zanzibar ever violated the Slave Trade 
lieaty . I have never heard of his having done 
so. 
413. Did he discourage, as far as he could, the 
visits of the northern dhowsf—He did; on one 
occasion he went so far as to say that he would 
L ™ dhow that came from the north. I 
thought it a very general way of putting it, and 
I proposed that he should only burn those dhows 
that