9
ON SLAVE TRADE (EAST COAST OF AFRICA).
140. Sir J. Hay.'\ As the distance increases
Irom which the slaves have to be fetched, so do
the suflPerings of the slaves and the loss of life
among them increase ?—No doubt.
141. Chairman^] What is your opinion as to
^^®^Gst course to pursue in order to suppress the
ti'affic in slaves on the east coast ?—I cannot say
iRore than that I adhere entirely to the opinions
^hich the Committee enunciate in this report ; I
dp not think it has been sufficiently understood
ß^her by the Government or by such Members
this House as have taken an interest in the
•luestion, that we proposed to attach to the treaty
absolute stipulation that within a certain time
the traffic should cease altogether, that there
should be no transport by sea of slaves. We do not
Pî^opose to do it suddenly, but gradually, and with
an independent sovereign whose independence we
h^^’e guaranteed ; I do not think it right that we
slumld take him by the throat and say, at the
risk of losing your kingdom put a stop altogether
0 traffic in slaves by sea.
142. Have any communications taken place
between our Government and the French Go-'Vernment
respecting their policy with regard to
Ihe slave trade on the east coast of Africa ?—
Yes ; as I have already stated we have drawn
their attention strongly to cases in which there
Was a suspicion that the French flag was abused
for slave trade jiurposes, and they have promised
return to make inquiries, at the same time
they deny the accuracy of our information ; I belove
they are honestly anxious to put down the
trade.
I4d. Under whose direct orders does the
political agent at Zanzibar act ? — He acts
orders of the Bombay Goverment,
subject to the control of the Secretary of State
tor India over here. But, after the Report of
Committee, in which we recommended
strongly that the expenses of the agency should
e shared between ourselves and the India Office,
e agreed with the India Office that in all slave
matters he should be under the control of
.®oretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and
^ in all Indian matters he should be under the
on rol of the Secretary of State for India,
atterly the India Office have said, in consequence
of the refusal of the Government to pay
^nything towards the expenses of the agency,
lat they would put the office on an entirely new
ooting, having reference solely to Indian interests.
. Mr. Kennaway7\ Do you know whether
Ellice the issuing of this Report, any decision has
eenconie-to by the Indian Government as to
e leving the Sultan from the payment of the
sidy to the Imaum of Muscat ?—Sir J ohn
ay will be better able to give information upon
5. Has any effort been made to get the
^?-eperate with us ?—No, I do not
+1 ^ ® Americans have a consulate there even ;
there is a North German consul, a French con-Sill,
and our consul.
Have you any other sug-^
make to the Committee with a view to
slave trade on the east
mnii 9 than those you have already
thaf^* very glad to see the interest
beginning to be taken in the matter ; I
affairs out there are in as unsatisfactory a
ate as they possibly could be, and I think it ii
that something should be done
is
In my opinion the best plan of doing it is that
which the Committee have suggested, viz., gradually
to seal up the ports on the coast, and forbid
the transport of slaves altogether. In addition to
that, I think that the Northern Arabs ought to
be prevented coming down at all ; they do a great
deal of mischief ; they are not legal traders, and
there is no doubt they are breaking the treaty.
147. Probably the delay that has taken place
in carrying out the recommendations of the Report
of that Committee, may have induced this
revival of the trade of which we hear?—It may
have had something to do with it ; it is also to be
borne in mind that there was cholera on the coast
last year, and the operatic as of the slave trade
squadron were suspended for some time ; and
also, there having been a diminution in the
number of slaves supplied, probably there was a
greater demand for them this year.
148. The action of the squadron, though not
perfect, has, I suppose, been of immense service
in checking the trade ?—No doubt, but still our
attempts to suppress the slave trade cause great
loss of life, because whenever a cruiser is seen
they run the vessel on shore,caring nothing what
becomes of the slaves. I should like to see the
action of the squadron supplemented by the other
means of suppression to which I have referred.
149. Chairman.'] You agree probably with
what was stated the other evening, that one consular
agent is worth a vessel ?—No doubt.
150. Mr. Kinnaird.] This Report has been in
the hands of Members of Parliament for some
months ?—Yes.
151. And it has been in the hands of the
Government since January 1870 ?—Yes.
152. Do you attribute the delay which has
arisen in carrying out the recommendations of the
Report to the want of the means of carrying it
out?—The provisions of the proposed treaty have
not yet been accepted, but probably if the Government
were determined to push their policy on
that coast, they would go to work in a more
energetic manner than they have done hitherto.
It was of no use proposing to carry out one-half
of a measure, if the other half was not to be
carried out.
153. The sooner you can get this question
brought to an issue the better ?—Yes, if this
Session, so much the better ; you will not do it
without expense; you must expect to spend
money.
154. But with regard to expense, you think
that a fair and legitimate trade would spring up,
which would soon compensate any expense that
would be temporarily incurred inputting down the
slave trade ?—I think so. You will have better
information upon that point from local men, but
that is the opinion I should form from the information
that we receive.
155. Is Persia in any way mixed up in this
question?—Yes; and as I have already stated,
we have a treaty with Persia.
156. Does Persia carry out the treaty fairly ?
—I have no doubt they bring in slaves landed in
the Persian Gulf ; they import slaves by land ;
they have refused to bind themselves not to import
slaves by land.
157. You think the argument that the Sultan
would most understand, as an inducement to put
down the slave traffic, would be a pecuniary
consideration ?—I think it would have a very
great effect ; naturally, a man does not like to lose
120,000/. of his revenue, and moreover an Arab
B does
Hon.
C. Vivian.
10 July
1871.
