20 
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 
Sir Foreign Office most distinctly to say that, as the 
JV. Kaye. Imperial Government will not have any concern 
j jyj with it of any kind, and as the Government of 
1871/ India protest very strongly against paying for 
anything connected with the slave trade, we think 
that the Foreign Office should cease to send in 
structions to our agent at Zanzibar at all, thus 
leaving it to the Imj)erial Government to appoint 
their own agent there if they like. 
262. Have you sent him any instructions as 
your agent, to discontinue his endeavours to sup 
press the slave trade ?—The Secretary of State 
for India certainly has sent him no such in 
structions, but it is possible that the Government 
of India may have done so. I suppose that state 
of things described in the letter which has just 
been read by Mr. Vivian, that the Government 
of India were rather encouraging than otherwise 
the trade in slaves, or at all ev'cnts, not dis 
couraging it, has arisen out of this very embroglio 
to which we have been referring. 
263. Would the agent at Zanzibar be allowed 
to act as judge of the Vice Admiralty Court 
still ?—That is a question I have not considered. 
I think that the Government of India would not 
allow anything to take place that would cause 
any embarrassment and confusion. I conceive, 
therefore, that he would still act as judge of the 
Vice Admiralty Court. 
264. Is much of his time taken up in slave 
trade matters?—Í should consider that a larger 
part of his time was taken up with slave trade 
matters than with anything connected with India, 
but upon that question Mr. Churchill is ready to 
give evidence. 
265. Mr. J. Talbot.'] Do you think that the 
Sultan of Zanzibar, with the view of getting re 
leased from this subsidy, is putting a pressure 
upon us by encouraging the slave trade?—I 
think it is very likely. Syed Mejid died whilst 
IVIiv Churchill was in Zanzibar, after that gentle 
man had sat upon the Slave Trade Committee, 
and I have no doubt that Syed Burgash thinks 
it very likely that he will be relieved from the 
payment of the subsidy, 
266. The more he encourages the slave trade, 
the more pressure he puts upon the Government 
to relieve him from the payment of the subsidy ? 
—I think it is very probable. 
267. With regard to the suggestions of the 
Slave Trade Committee, of which you say you 
have no doubt the Treasury had cognisance^ have 
they been officially pressed upon the Treasury as 
a means by which the slave trade might be 
abolished?—The Foreign Office have pressed 
these considerations upon the Treasury, and the 
Slave Trade Report was laid before Parliament. 
268. Did the Treasury, after it was pressed 
upon them that by a small expenditure they could 
abolish the slave trade on the east coast of 
Africa, take upon themselves the responsibility of 
refusing that small expenditure ?—Undoubtedly 
they did; the refusal was made when they 
addressed the letter to the Foreign Office to 
which I have referred. 
269. Lord K. Cavendish.] The main part of 
the slaves exported from Zanzibar go to Muscat, 
do they not ?—Some do ; I do not think the main 
proportion do. 
270. Have we any treaty with the Imaum of 
Muscat for the suppression of the foreign slave 
trade?—Yes; the original treaties were made 
with the Imaum of Muscat, when he was also 
ruler of Zanzibar. 
271. If the non-fulfilment of the conditions of 
that treaty with the Imaum of Muscat is one of 
the chief causes of the encouragement of this 
trade, do you consider that we are bound to 
enforce the payment of the subsidy to the Imaum 
of Muscat, in the case of his non-fulfilment of 
such engagement?—I do not think that this ar 
rangement which was made for the payment of 
the 40,000 crowns by the Sultan of Zanzibar to 
the Imaum of Muscat, had any bearing upon 
anything connected with the slave trade at all. 
The arrangement was come to on this considera 
tion, that the revenues of Zanzibar were larger 
than the revenues of Muscat, and it was supposed 
that the payment was necessary to the ruler of 
Muscat, with reference to his engagements to 
others ; in point of fact, Muscat was originally 
the substantive state, Zanzibar being only a 
sort of appendage it; and the question was, 
whether Muscat, being the more warlike state 
of the two, would not attack Zanzibar, and 
whether the Imaum of Muscat would not say. 
In my father’s time Muscat and Zanzibar 
were one kingdom, and I will make it one king 
dom now.” This arrangement was come to, to 
prevent any such disturbance, and it had no 
reference to the slave trade whatever. Of course 
any breach or violation of treaty on the part of 
Muscat towards the British Government, may be 
punished by us as we think fit, but it was not 
with reference to any revenues from slaves that 
the agreement as to the subsidy was made. 
272. Do you consider it reasonable that he 
should expect the power of England to be used 
to enforce the payment of this sum to him, when 
he is putting us to an immense expense in the 
arrangements we are making for the suppression 
of the slave trade, in consequence of his not ob 
serving his treaty ?—It is a question whether he 
is putting us to enormous expense. I do not 
suppose that our squadron is mainly employed 
on this service. 
273. We were told by Mr. Vivian, that by far 
the largest proportion of the slaves from Zanzi 
bar are taken to Muscat?—That, no doubt, was 
stated on much better information than I am 
able to give upon the subject. The details of the 
slave trade .are superintended by the Forei^-n 
Ofime. 
274. The recommendation of the Committee 
of which you were a member, with respect to the 
payment of our consular establishment at Zanzi 
bar, was only a small part of the recommendations 
of that Committee ?—We made several other re 
commendations. 
275. Amongst other recommendations which 
you made, you suggested that a new treaty 
should be made with the Sultan of Zanzibar ?— 
276. Have you any reason to suppose that 
the Sultan of Zanzibar would accept such a treaty 
as you recommended?—I think he would, if we 
released him from the subsidy, or paid him an 
equivalent. My recommendation is, that if we do 
not feel ourselves to be in such a political position 
as to release him from the subsidy, we should pay 
the money ourselves. 
277. Did I rightly understand you to say that 
the mere payment of 1,500 /. a year, by the Im 
perial Exchequer, would put an end to the slave 
trade on the east coast of Africa ?—I have not 
stated that ; I wish distinctly to be understood 
to