9 
ON SLAVE TRADE (EAST COAST OF AFRICA). 
140. Sir J. Hay.'\ As the distance increases 
Irom which the slaves have to be fetched, so do 
the suflPerings of the slaves and the loss of life 
among them increase ?—No doubt. 
141. Chairman^] What is your opinion as to 
^^®^Gst course to pursue in order to suppress the 
ti'affic in slaves on the east coast ?—I cannot say 
iRore than that I adhere entirely to the opinions 
^hich the Committee enunciate in this report ; I 
dp not think it has been sufficiently understood 
ß^her by the Government or by such Members 
this House as have taken an interest in the 
•luestion, that we proposed to attach to the treaty 
absolute stipulation that within a certain time 
the traffic should cease altogether, that there 
should be no transport by sea of slaves. We do not 
Pî^opose to do it suddenly, but gradually, and with 
an independent sovereign whose independence we 
h^^’e guaranteed ; I do not think it right that we 
slumld take him by the throat and say, at the 
risk of losing your kingdom put a stop altogether 
0 traffic in slaves by sea. 
142. Have any communications taken place 
between our Government and the French Go- 
'Vernment respecting their policy with regard to 
Ihe slave trade on the east coast of Africa ?— 
Yes ; as I have already stated we have drawn 
their attention strongly to cases in which there 
Was a suspicion that the French flag was abused 
for slave trade jiurposes, and they have promised 
return to make inquiries, at the same time 
they deny the accuracy of our information ; I be- 
love they are honestly anxious to put down the 
trade. 
I4d. Under whose direct orders does the 
political agent at Zanzibar act ? — He acts 
orders of the Bombay Goverment, 
subject to the control of the Secretary of State 
tor India over here. But, after the Report of 
Committee, in which we recommended 
strongly that the expenses of the agency should 
e shared between ourselves and the India Office, 
e agreed with the India Office that in all slave 
matters he should be under the control of 
.®oretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and 
^ in all Indian matters he should be under the 
on rol of the Secretary of State for India, 
atterly the India Office have said, in conse 
quence of the refusal of the Government to pay 
^nything towards the expenses of the agency, 
lat they would put the office on an entirely new 
ooting, having reference solely to Indian inte 
rests. 
. Mr. Kennaway7\ Do you know whether 
Ellice the issuing of this Report, any decision has 
eenconie-to by the Indian Government as to 
e leving the Sultan from the payment of the 
sidy to the Imaum of Muscat ?—Sir J ohn 
ay will be better able to give information upon 
5. Has any effort been made to get the 
^?-eperate with us ?—No, I do not 
+1 ^ ® Americans have a consulate there even ; 
there is a North German consul, a French con- 
Sill, and our consul. 
Have you any other sug- 
^ make to the Committee with a view to 
slave trade on the east 
mnii 9 than those you have already 
thaf^* very glad to see the interest 
beginning to be taken in the matter ; I 
affairs out there are in as unsatisfactory a 
ate as they possibly could be, and I think it ii 
that something should be done 
is 
In my opinion the best plan of doing it is that 
which the Committee have suggested, viz., gra 
dually to seal up the ports on the coast, and forbid 
the transport of slaves altogether. In addition to 
that, I think that the Northern Arabs ought to 
be prevented coming down at all ; they do a great 
deal of mischief ; they are not legal traders, and 
there is no doubt they are breaking the treaty. 
147. Probably the delay that has taken place 
in carrying out the recommendations of the Re 
port of that Committee, may have induced this 
revival of the trade of which we hear?—It may 
have had something to do with it ; it is also to be 
borne in mind that there was cholera on the coast 
last year, and the operatic as of the slave trade 
squadron were suspended for some time ; and 
also, there having been a diminution in the 
number of slaves supplied, probably there was a 
greater demand for them this year. 
148. The action of the squadron, though not 
perfect, has, I suppose, been of immense service 
in checking the trade ?—No doubt, but still our 
attempts to suppress the slave trade cause great 
loss of life, because whenever a cruiser is seen 
they run the vessel on shore,caring nothing what 
becomes of the slaves. I should like to see the 
action of the squadron supplemented by the other 
means of suppression to which I have referred. 
149. Chairman.'] You agree probably with 
what was stated the other evening, that one con 
sular agent is worth a vessel ?—No doubt. 
150. Mr. Kinnaird.] This Report has been in 
the hands of Members of Parliament for some 
months ?—Yes. 
151. And it has been in the hands of the 
Government since January 1870 ?—Yes. 
152. Do you attribute the delay which has 
arisen in carrying out the recommendations of the 
Report to the want of the means of carrying it 
out?—The provisions of the proposed treaty have 
not yet been accepted, but probably if the Govern 
ment were determined to push their policy on 
that coast, they would go to work in a more 
energetic manner than they have done hitherto. 
It was of no use proposing to carry out one-half 
of a measure, if the other half was not to be 
carried out. 
153. The sooner you can get this question 
brought to an issue the better ?—Yes, if this 
Session, so much the better ; you will not do it 
without expense; you must expect to spend 
money. 
154. But with regard to expense, you think 
that a fair and legitimate trade would spring up, 
which would soon compensate any expense that 
would be temporarily incurred inputting down the 
slave trade ?—I think so. You will have better 
information upon that point from local men, but 
that is the opinion I should form from the in 
formation that we receive. 
155. Is Persia in any way mixed up in this 
question?—Yes; and as I have already stated, 
we have a treaty with Persia. 
156. Does Persia carry out the treaty fairly ? 
—I have no doubt they bring in slaves landed in 
the Persian Gulf ; they import slaves by land ; 
they have refused to bind themselves not to im 
port slaves by land. 
157. You think the argument that the Sultan 
would most understand, as an inducement to put 
down the slave traffic, would be a pecuniary 
consideration ?—I think it would have a very 
great effect ; naturally, a man does not like to lose 
120,000/. of his revenue, and moreover an Arab 
B does 
Hon. 
C. Vivian. 
10 July 
1871.